kaberett: a dalek stands at the foot of a flight of stairs, thinking "fuck." (dalek)
[personal profile] kaberett
Okay, for future reference, even if I say I don't want warnings, I am lying if the thing you want to warn me about is SURPRISE TRANSPHOBIA BEFORE PAGE TEN. Especially when for bonus lulz it is PLOT-IRRELEVANT TRANSPHOBIA.

Wow. WOW.

Hello,

you all seem like proper awesome types, so I'm hoping that by e-mailing this address the concrit can get passed on to the appropriate people! :-)

Background: I'm a trans* person and my university's trans* rep; I recently bought the eARC of Captain Vorpatril's Alliance.

I've previously really adored the Vorkosiverse in part because of how well it handles queer, trans*, disabled etc characters (I'm all of the above!), how accurate the science is, and so on - I'm a scientist & I am always overjoyed to get to read hard SF that doesn't act like I'm, well, an alien in the bad sense.

So I was very, VERY shocked to find some egregious (and apparently plot-irrelevant!) transphobia within the first ten pages of CVA. The passage I'm concerned about is:
"I am fairly certain she's a real girl, Ivan."
"You think? With you, one never knows." He eyed By dryly, and By had the grace to squirm just a bit, in acknowledgement of his cousin Dono nee Donna of lamented memory. Donna, that is. Count Dono Vorrutyer was all too vivid a presence, on the Vorbarr Sultana political scene.

There's a number of problems with this:
(1) By's line, taken in isolation, suggests that trans women aren't "real" women.
(2) Ivan's line slightly salvages this - by acknowledging that trans men aren't women. HOWEVER:
(3) "nee" is the feminine. Using "nee" to discuss a trans man is incredibly undermining. I appreciate that a lot of the time people don't bother preserving the distinction - but I tripped HARD over it here, given the preceding lines. In this context, that distinction is important.
(4) Dono is being "outed" in a way that is (so far) plot-irrelevant - and is lampshaded in the very next line as irrelevant! That is, attention is being drawn to Dono's trans status for no obvious reason other than to treat him as a joke while the "real men" talk. I don't see any way that this is justifiable, and it made my skin crawl.
(5) There is no POSSIBLE way in which By is responsible for his cousin's transition. Implying that he is, again for the sake of a bad "joke", is really, really gross - and treats Dono's transition as a bad thing.


Basically, there's an awful lot wrong with those six lines and it's massively soured my appreciation for a book I was so excited about that I spent $15 on the eARC (I don't currently have any source of income, and bought it as a treat for myself after a really rough week). I've reached out to my friends to ask if there's anything similar in the rest of the book, because I can't continue reading knowing that I might be surprised like that again.

You're all great; you've historically been fabulous at this sort of thing; I would be eternally grateful if you fixed this before the final manuscript goes to print, and if you let me know what action you were planning to take.

Yours sincerely,
-alex.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 10:01 am (UTC)
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] azurelunatic
*wince* That was why I asked.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 10:15 am (UTC)
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] azurelunatic
I will admit to cynicism about whether this actually gets removed, because I read Barrayar as transphobic as fuck and deliberately written to be so (one of the ways that it is behind the Galactic standard), and I read Ivan as more Barrayaran than Miles in his attitudes, even if he would never take his attitudes to become a physical danger to someone whose identity Barrayar rejects. (See: the casual homophobic exchange in Brothers in Arms.)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 10:35 am (UTC)
azurelunatic: Vivid pink Alaskan wild rose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] azurelunatic
*nods* I guess we wait and see.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 10:47 am (UTC)
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lannamichaels
The authorial voice also uses "it" as a pronoun.


I've reached out to my friends to ask if there's anything similar in the rest of the book, because I can't continue reading knowing that I might be surprised like that again.

There's pronoun fail for Dono later in CVA.
Edited Date: 2012-09-04 10:49 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 11:10 am (UTC)
lannamichaels: Astronaut Dale Gardner holds up For Sale sign after EVA. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lannamichaels
Fuckhell. I thought she'd handled using "it" as a pronoun for Betan herms with as much grace as could be expected following the initial horror, and had been recommending her on those grounds.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't recall off-hand if "it" gets used in CVA. I was referring to past books as what the authorial voice has done.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-04 11:13 pm (UTC)
trialia: Ziva David (Cote de Pablo), head down, hair wind-streamed, eyes almost closed. (Default)
From: [personal profile] trialia
Yeah, I grit my teeth on that one. I'm glad someone complained (I might've done myself, but was hospitalised very shortly after reading for most of a month and have only just got out). The rest of the book is... well, I found it more enjoyable than Cryoburn, anyway.

Unfortunately, that is typically conservative-Barrayaran, so whether it gets changed completely is something I'm unsure about, but you might get an authorial note by way of sort-of-disclaimer of her believing that, because it's certainly not her personal view on the subject... Or if you ARE lucky, she may change Ivan's response to reflect that, as Ivan is meant to be a sympathetic character.

I understand your backtracking, though, and I'm sorry it happened. Not, I mean, that you felt you had to backtrack, but that this happened to make you feel that way. If you see what I mean. I'm not very good with words.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-05 01:32 am (UTC)
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)
From: [personal profile] holyschist
By and Ivan continue to play the 'he - she - we just can't pick a pronoun game lol' for the entire book, and iirc, other characters did, too (I think possibly one of Dono's sisters-in-law, although I can't remember now). I winced every time: it wasn't plot-advancing, and I'm actually not convinced it is in character, especially for By, "snarky" or not. Although I also thought the book did its damnedest to functionally straighten By out, which disappointed me.

I can't shake the feeling that it's authorial voice, given the 'it' thing. There are a few folks out there who genuinely prefer 'it' as a pronoun, but it's still...so very loaded, I wonder.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-05 03:37 am (UTC)
vass: Jon Stewart reading a dictionary (books)
From: [personal profile] vass
Bujold has long struck me as someone who thinks she's better on LGBT* issues (among other issues) than she is. Didn't someone once ask her if she was going to pair Ivan up with a man, and she replied that she had enough gay or bi characters already? Like there's a quota, and she filled it? And it's a pretty damn small quota, too, with a significantly higher ratio of Bad Guys than her straight characters.

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-05 03:53 am (UTC)
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)
From: [personal profile] holyschist
Bujold has long struck me as someone who thinks she's better on LGBT* issues (among other issues) than she is.

Yeah, this. :-/

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-06 02:53 am (UTC)
holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (Default)
From: [personal profile] holyschist
I mean, some of the people reading this journal (HI TO Y'ALL) have "it" as their (pl) preferred pronoun: but I am dubious that it would end up the default PP for an entire group. I do think that she fixed it as gracefully as was possible, with the later explicit discussion of preferred pronouns, but it was non-ideal.

Yes, pretty much my feelings. And I have one friend who pretty much threw the book across the room for that reason and never came back, and I cannot blame him, you know? I think Bujold's handling of queer and nonbinary characters is the weakest point in her books, and I'm at the point where I'm reading the books so I can continue enjoying the far more queer-friendly fanfiction.

Also, woo, geology! It was my undergrad major, but I have since ended up going slightly different directions.
Edited Date: 2012-09-06 03:06 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2012-09-06 01:24 am (UTC)
damerell: NetHack. (normal)
From: [personal profile] damerell
I don't get it. Ivan's a pretty blunt chap, and he hails from a society dragged out of feudalism in living memory - a society that, to boot, has to be sexist and transphobic for the Dono plot of A Civil Campaign to work. It would be very implausible if he didn't make this kind of remark.

(And Dono, of course, transitioned for entirely political reasons. One wonders if he suffers now from gender dysphoria.)

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